Israeli-Palestinian conflict ''solvable'' - It's the neighbors that are the problem (Feb 01, 2013)

An Israeli diplomat says it would be possible to solve his country’s conflict with Palestinians, if that was the only thing on the table.

Consul General of Israel to the Southwest Meir Shlomo says the Arab World has always rejected Israel’s existence in the Middle East, even before the state’s establishment in May 1948.

“It’s as simple as that,” Ambassador Shlomo told KGOU’s World Views. “And what we need in order to overcome this conflict is that the Arab World will change its mind, and understand that Israel is there, and we’re not going anywhere.”

Shlomo says Jordan and Egypt reconciled Israel’s presence in the Middle East decades ago, led by the late Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, and Jordan’s King Hussein. He argues most Arab leaders use Israel as a scapegoat for broader problems in the Muslim world, such as the 1980s Iran-Iraq War, and the Arab Spring protests that began in late 2010.

“Even if the Israeli-Arab conflict would be solved, we shouldn't think that the Arab World, and the Middle East is going to be without any problems,” Shlomo says.

While in Norman last November, Ambassador Shlomo addressed Iran’s demonization of Israel and its call for the country’s annihilation. In a speech in August, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called Israel a “black stain” on humanity.

“So there’s no question about their intentions,” Shlomo says. “Now, the question is not only their intentions, but what’s the capability in order to fulfill their intentions?”

Shlomo said a nuclear Iran would trigger an arms race across the Middle East.

“[That’s] a worrisome issue by itself, but that would make it ever more easy for a terrorist organization to gain access to a nuclear device, and I don’t have to tell the consequences of that to any of us,” Shlomo says.

The Israeli diplomat also spent time during his visit to Oklahoma at the State Capitol with Gov. Mary Fallin. Shlomo thanked Fallin, Oklahoma’s former Fifth District U.S. Representative, for her pro-Israel votes while she was in Congress. The two also explored how Oklahoma energy companies could expand natural gas drilling off the coast of Israel.

“We would like to have some major companies in Oklahoma come and take part in that and maybe explore some new possibilities, maybe try to get a little bit of knowledge because we are new in the energy business,” Shlomo told the Oklahoman newspaper. “What a better place to learn energy than Oklahoma.”

INTERVIEW HIGHLIGHTS:

On Iran’s intentions to act on their “demonization” of Israel

Now, the question is not only their intentions, but what's the capability in order to fulfill their intentions? This is where the issue of a nuclear Iran is getting out of hand. This is not anymore a potential nuclear plan; this is a full-fledged military that has been confirmed by everybody and their sister, from military intelligence of various countries - the European countries, the United States, Israel, and the United Nations nuclear agency. So, they have a full-fledged nuclear program, and that is the reason why they're under sanctions. It didn't happen for any good reason. Imagine the world with a nuclear Iran. It's not an Israeli issue. It's an issue that worries the whole world. This is why President Obama and Governor Romney were very open about it, and had a very clear, [similar] position that we are not talking about a containment of nuclear Iran, but preventing Iran from becoming nuclear.

On some of the consequences of a nuclear Iran

They can actually block the Strait of Hormuz today. Maybe not for a long time, but imagine them blocking the Strait of Hormuz, and having a nuclear weapons. That's a different ball game altogether. Then, we are talking about the Gulf countries. Saudi Arabia, which is just next to them, which has Shi'ite populations who will be more than happy to overthrow this regime. Getting the support from Iran, and Iran being incapable of preventing any kind of reaction by the virtue of being nuclear, means that all this oil might be very well under Iranian hands. I don't have to tell you how much oil is there. Nuclear Iran will trigger a nuclear race in the Middle East - a worrisome issue by itself - but that would make if ever more easy for a terrorist organization to gain access to a nuclear device, and I don't have to tell the consequences of that to any of us. So a nuclear Iran is a huge issue, the big gorilla in the room, if you would like, for the whole world.

On the Palestinian-Israeli conflict being “solvable,” but not realistic

Unfortunately, this is not the reality, and it's very simple to prove it. The Israeli-Arab conflict existed before Palestine was even an option, before the PLO was even established. You can take it back actually 100 years, not only 65 years, this Israeli-Arab conflict. The reason of the Israeli-Arab conflict is not Palestine. The reason is the Arab World has always rejected the very right of Israel to exist in the Middle East. Nothing more, nothing less. It's as simple as that.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

SUZETTE GRILLOT, HOST: Consul General Meir Shlomo, welcome to World Views today.

AMBASSADOR MEIR SHLOMO: Thank you for having me.

GRILLOT: So I'd like to start by asking you a question about the Arab Spring. Of course, what we've been seeing in this country for the past couple of years is a lot of news about the uprising going on in the Arab World. So how does this have an impact on your country? On Israel?

SHLOMO: Well, I think the first thing that comes into mind for anybody who looks on the Middle East during the Arab Spring is, while most of the countries that are going through the Arab Spring are in the process of fragmentation, which is very worrisome. Because the major effect of it can destabilize the region, especially if this fragmentation is along sectarian lines. Israel, I would say, shines as an island of stability and predictability, which is sometimes a luxury in this part of the world. The second thing is, for a long time we've been saying that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, but we would be more than happy to share this title with Arab countries. We are looking hopefully to see some new democracies joining us in this part of the world, but having said that, what we really want to see are real democracies, and not just token democracies. Using Google and demonstrating on the street does not constitute a democracy. It's all very nice and dandy, but real democracy is a society where you have freedom of speech, freedom of expression, equality of gender, participation of society in civic activities, and so on and so forth. So that is the kind of democracy that we're looking forward to have as our neighbors, for two simple reasons: One - we champion democracy being a democracy ourselves - and the second is that we truly believe that a democratic Arab country is much more likely to embrace peace as a strategy to better the prosperity of their own citizens. So for these two reasons we are very hopeful. Having said that, it would be nice to see where things are really going. That's yet another question.

GRILLOT: Well, this distinction you're making between "real democracy" or stable democracy, let's say, and countries that are making their way towards stable democracies - in order to be a real and stable democracy, there's that period of transition to "real" stable democracy. So that could potentially be a very long path, a very unstable and potentially bloody path. So what do you do in the meantime? What can you do, what is your country doing to facilitate a progression toward good, stable, solid democracy in the region?

SHLOMO: You're absolutely right. You cannot expect a country to transform, from one day to another, from being a dictatorship to a full-fledged democracy. Having said that, we have to realize that any kind of throwing the old regime does not necessarily end up with a democracy. You have a lot of examples. Take the example of Iran. When the Shah was toppled down, everybody was cheering: "We haven't had a sort-of secular, democratic government for a few months." Then they were toppled, and from 1979 to today we've had a very dark regime that is much worse than the Shah. So transition, yes, but we should always know that transition has two ways to go about it. What I think we can do, and that's what we're trying to do, is stay patient. Not call the judgment too early, but part of it is also realizing that it can go the bad way, although we would love to see it going the good way.

GRILLOT: So you bring up Iran, and the Iranian demonization of Israel, and also their potential plans for developing a nuclear weapons program. What exactly are your concerns? What do you mean by the "demonization" of Israel? And what is it that you would like to see happen regarding Iran?

SHLOMO: Well, let's start from the part of the demonization, because that's the easiest. This is where the Iranian rulers come to our help by declaring, very openly, their feelings about Israel. They regard Israel as a stain on humanity, and that's a direct quote of Ahmadinejad. They regard Israel as something that should not exist altogether, and if it exists, we have to get rid of it the sooner the better. So there's no question about their intentions about Israel. That's very worrisome, to the point that even the Secretary General of the United Nations has condemned openly this kind of violent declaration. So I think that's pretty much a conclusive case about the Iranian intention, and the way they would like to handle Israel altogether. Now, the question is not only their intentions, but what's the capability in order to fulfill their intentions? This is where the issue of a nuclear Iran is getting out of hand. This is not anymore a potential nuclear plan; this is a full-fledged military that has been confirmed by everybody and their sister, from military intelligence of various countries - the European countries, the United States, Israel, and the United Nations nuclear agency. So, they have a full-fledged nuclear program, and that is the reason why they're under sanctions. It didn't happen for any good reason. Imagine the world with a nuclear Iran. It's not an Israeli issue. It's an issue that worries the whole world. This is why President Obama and Governor Romney were very open about it, and had a very clear, [similar] position that we are not talking about a containment of nuclear Iran, but preventing Iran from becoming nuclear. The centrifuges are still spinning, although the sanctions are in place. The Iranians do not show any signs that they want to let go of their military nuclear program. When you put the two together, the capabilities and their intention, that’s a very unhappy result, and let me just remind you of a few of the things that might happen with a nuclear Iran, and not with regard to Israel. A) The Strait of Hormuz, where a huge part of the energy comes to the West. They can actually block the Strait of Hormuz today. Maybe not for a long time, but imagine them blocking the Strait of Hormuz, and having a nuclear weapons. That's a different ball game altogether. Then, we are talking about the Gulf countries. Saudi Arabia, which is just next to them, which has Shi'ite populations who will be more than happy to overthrow this regime. Getting the support from Iran, and Iran being incapable of preventing any kind of reaction by the virtue of being nuclear, means that all this oil might be very well under Iranian hands. I don't have to tell you how much oil is there. Nuclear Iran will trigger a nuclear race in the Middle East - a worrisome issue by itself - but that would make if ever more easy for a terrorist organization to gain access to a nuclear device, and I don't have to tell the consequences of that to any of us. So a nuclear Iran is a huge issue, the big gorilla in the room, if you would like, for the whole world. It's true that Israel is extremely worried about it, but so is the rest of the world. It's enough to just read the WikiLeaks cables going from the American embassies, after talking to the Saudi rulers, what they thought. Cut the head off the snake, and the snake was not Israel. The snake was Iran.

GRILLOT: Is regime change enough in Iran? We're going to have elections, we're going to have a change in power in Iran. Is that enough? Or what more do you want to see happen? Is it larger than one leader, or is it an entire change of all institutions in Iran? What is it that you're looking for?

SHLOMO: We are looking for a very simple thing: for the centrifuges to stop spinning. That's the beginning...

GRILLOT: Is it the change in regime? Do you think that will make that happen?

SHLOMO: What will make the centrifuges stop spinning, you will have different options. Beginning from an internal change of regime, and ending with a military option. But here's the thing: When you speak about the regime change in Iran, we have to think outside of those who are now in power, because it's not only about Ahmadinejad. The whole ayatollah regime is committed to the nuclear military program of Iran. So you're talking about replacing the whole regime, not just one person with another. Ahmadinejad, the predecessor of Ahmadinejad, and probably the one who will inherit Ahmadinejad, are all for this nuclear program, unfortunately. But again, we are not in the business of mingling in other states' regimes, and this kind of thing, but what we want to see is very simple. We want the centrifuges to stop spinning, and for Iran not to have a military nuclear device.

GRILLOT: Well let's switch gears just slightly, and talk about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, an ongoing conflict for many decades now. Is this really the primary issue? People talk about how relations will improve in the region if you solve this conflict. Is this the reality, or what is your characterization?

SHLOMO: I wish it was the reality, because if that were the reality, then we would know that we're confined to the Palestinian-Israeli problem, which is solvable. Unfortunately, this is not the reality, and it's very simple to prove it. The Israeli-Arab conflict existed before Palestine was even an option, before the PLO was even established. You can take it back actually 100 years, not only 65 years, this Israeli-Arab conflict. The reason of the Israeli-Arab conflict is not Palestine. The reason is the Arab World has always rejected the very right of Israel to exist in the Middle East. Nothing more, nothing less. It's as simple as that. And what we need in order to overcome this conflict is that the Arab World will change its mind, and understand that Israel is there, and we're not going anywhere. Some of these countries have already done it, and we cheer them, and they deserve full credit. The late President Sadat, King Hussein, they were bold enough, and responsible enough to do it, and it was not easy, but they chose the peaceful way, and we have more than 40 years of peace agreements between these two countries. So that is the real problem in the Middle East as far as Israel is concerned. Even if the Israeli-Arab conflict would be solved, we shouldn't think that the Arab World, and the Middle East is going to be without any problems. What does the Iraq-Iran War have to do with Israel? Or what does the Arab Spring today have to do with Israel? All these huge, endemic problems are problems that the Arab and the Muslim World have to face and solve by themselves. Unfortunately, a lot of Arab leaders use Israel as the scapegoat to all the problems that exist in Arab society. I think the Arab Spring is very good proof that this is not the case.

GRILLOT: So just one final question: Do you think development would be the solution here? Poverty? That's the key - solve poverty in the region, and you'll solve many of these problems?

SHLOMO: I think that prosperity will not eradicate all the problems. It will not eradicate the possibility of still having extremist organizations, but that is probably the best and the biggest step we can initiate in the Arab World. Helping them to help themselves. But it must come from within the Arab World and the Muslim World. They must be the ones to carry the burden. We should help them, but we shouldn't do it instead of them, because it's not going to work. They should carry the burden, they have to be responsible enough. The leaders have to be responsible to tell the leaders: "Listen, this is the problem. We need to deal with the problem, not with some kind of make-believe issue, or any pretext like that." Once that will happen, I do believe that is the best step we can do, in order to stabilize this region, and at the end of the day, I think most people in the Arab-Muslim World are like anyone like us. They just want to live in peace and prosperity.

GRILLOT: Well these are very challenging issues, and I thank you Consul General Shlomo for joining us on World Views to discuss them.

SHLOMO: Thank you for having me.

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